DDR German Shepherds

altostland · Site Admin Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 788 Location: Texas

Introducing Pia vom Flossgraben SchH1 a-normal
She's a gorgeous sable with rich red tones, and lively and fun!! Will show in 2007.
Pia has a very unique, old, unusual pedigree; Her sire was actually an old genuine DDR-registered dog, Cesar vom Ellernbach. She's free of Tino/Sven/Don Clausberg, etc... she (and her pups) should cross well with a wide variety of bloodlines.

http://hometown.aol.com/altostland/pia.html
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Jamie Bodeutsch · Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 856 Location: Western Washington

Judy she's a nice substantial female Very Happy

Great looking dog with a good alternative pedigree for the gene pool. Has she had litters before?
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altostland · Site Admin Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 788 Location: Texas

I'm told that she HAS, Jamie, but I don't have the info on them. I'm currently thinking of a breeding with her and possibly Yello v Haus Iris (still free of Sven-Tino). It would be a linebreeding on Zorro v Laager Wall (a very strong, hard, dominant dog, I'm told) and Dela v Zisawinkel.. She appears to be incapable of throwing black pups, but should throw very richly colored pups from sable to bicolor.
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Jamie Bodeutsch · Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 856 Location: Western Washington

That sounds great!! We need those alternative bloodlines and also ones that can work as well as look good. Very Happy

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spartshep · Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 111 Location: MI

Judy,

This is a typeful DDR female...VERY nice, exceptional pedigree! Congrats on her...it is not often one sees those *old* bloodlines. I have linebred on Zorro and love what it produced. What makes you think you won't produce blacks...you might, it is in many of the lines you have with her.
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Constance Krebs, RN, Univ of MI
Spartanville Shepherds
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Home of V Puck vom Gräfental, SchH3 KKL1

altostland · Site Admin Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 788 Location: Texas

Hi Connie -
Interesting topic to share and discuss - black recessive. The reasons I think she will not produce blacks are as follows:
1) Pia is almost identical to Venus in color, and they even share a chunk of their pedigrees... both go to a Condor vd Tonteichen son bred to a Zorro v Laager Wall daughter. Venus was bred to at least 4 different solid black males that I know of, and never threw a black puppy from any one of them, so I feel safe to say she does not carry the recessive. I know Zorro v Laager Wall was homozygous sable. While Venus did produce GORGEOUS bicolors and dark sables, there were no blacks.
2) Like Venus, Pia also has zero penciling on her toes, which I have been told is an indicator that they do not carry black recessive. I could be wrong!
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justk9s · Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:09 am Post subject:

Very nice girl. Best of luck with her.

My Rookies dam, Jaycee had penciling on all four feet and she was sable dominant. Bred to a Yasso Vom Schaferliesel a solid black, she produced 9 sables, 7 which were black sables. No matter what she was bred to, she always had sables.

Kelly · Joined: 08 Jul 2007 Posts: 808 Location: Michigan

Judy,

That is what I have heard as well with the penciling, but who really knows. With my Layla she had penciling, and it didn't matter who she was bred to she would always throw solid blacks, sables to black sables.

Now here's a question that was on another forum. If there is what an owner is calling a solid black, and he has tan or red going partially down his back legs, and between his toes, is he considered a solid black?(which in my opinion he is not)or bicolor? or a black factor? I myself would probably call him a black factor, but would like everyone else's opinions? I hope this is alright to ask since we are on the color question?
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Spence · Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 232 Location: Mendoza, TX

I no longer advertise my blacks as solid blacks because the tan and rust markings don't show up for a while. There's a 2 y/o in Las Vegas that just started showing rust markings. So when I've got blacks, that's what they're going to be called -- "blacks". I've never figured out whether my bi-colors are black and tan or whatever. Depends on who you talk to I guess.
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Gisela · Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 1771 Location: Houston, TX

I no more would call a dog with any signs of markings a solid black than I would a horse with a brown muzzle! But then again, I do not prefer the black GSD's anyway. I love a really dark bi-color above anything...ok maybe not above a really dark black sable! Wink

As far as their genetics for color production, I am not the one to ask on that one. Wink

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spartshep · Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 111 Location: MI

Judy~~Who knows, you could be right, too. I never heard the penciling theory, but sounds logical. Is that the same with bi-colors or just sables. Some bi-colors have penciling and some don't. Ulla does not, but throws blacks. Some see her as black/red and some as bi-color...who knows. I have never had a sable without penciling, but Murphy was homozygous sable, too. Everyone that is here has the black gene. Haike and Bruna, both overseas yet, do have penciling, too.

As to solid black...I asked Daryl Ehret, who I think has his act together regarding genetics. He says you must examine the underside of the tail and if that is solid black, without any other color, than genetically speaking, the dog is solid black. That makes absolutely no sense to me when the dog has markings, but that is what he says. Hope that helps.

Happy New Year to everyone!
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Connie

Constance Krebs, RN, Univ of MI
Spartanville Shepherds
www.spartanville.com

Home of V Puck vom Gräfental, SchH3 KKL1

Spence · Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 232 Location: Mendoza, TX

Checking under the tail is a good way, but not a foolproof way (imho). The dog I refer to in Las Vegas was as solid as could be from birth until a couple of months ago. I also bought a dog at 8 wks old, no colors other than black under the tail. At about 18 month, she developed tan/rust on the backs of her hind legs and between her forepaws. Incidentally, both her parents were "solid black"

Flip a coin
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Jaspenhof Kennels
Blacks & Sables
DDR, WGR, BE, NL, CZ

Kelly · Joined: 08 Jul 2007 Posts: 808 Location: Michigan

I have heard about flipping the tail and saying from that if the dog is a solid black or bicolor. I had one pup that at birth and when he went to his home I had put on his papers solid black, and under his tail he was solid black. About 2 years or so later they brought him over and he developed a dark rust color on his hind legs and between his toes. I guess everyone has their own theory. I guess to me a solid black is just that, with no color except solid black, and if a solid black has some other color to it, then I would think it would be a bicolor. Like Spence said "Flip a coin" Thanks for all opinions on this. Would like to hear more opinions.
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spartshep · Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 111 Location: MI

Color is not a matter of personal opinion...it is a matter of x's and y's, dominant/recessive, and where they fall in the DNA chain. If you truly want the answer, than do the DNA...that will tell the full story.
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Connie

Constance Krebs, RN, Univ of MI
Spartanville Shepherds
www.spartanville.com

Home of V Puck vom Gräfental, SchH3 KKL1

Spence · Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 232 Location: Mendoza, TX

And DNA will make about as much sense to me as looking at a dog's butt.

Sry, my sense of humor got the best of me.

It'll happen again, I'm sure
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Spence

Jaspenhof Kennels
Blacks & Sables
DDR, WGR, BE, NL, CZ